Herbicides & Insecticides

[heavyhitterokra]

Herbicides & Insecticides

I'm starting a new thread here; on the subject of Herbicides & Insecticides, because I noticed today, that we didn't already have one. 

The following conversation started over in the Mulberry Thread, when the subject of 'Rogue' or 'invasive' Mulberry trees along fence rows and sidewalks came up.  The conversation below is a reply to that problem:

I killed a rogue mulberry growing under a zip line once, using ice cream salt in summer, after we had made ice cream. That was pretty cheap tree-killer.   I had already cut that particular tree down several times using a chainsaw, but it kept coming back up from the roots. The salt cured that problem permanently.

Back in the early 90s, the Farmer's Co-op was selling pellets called, "SPIKE". Spike, was formulated for killing trees and cost about $60.00 per acre (at the time) to broadcast through standing timber when needing to kill trees in favor of grassland for cow pasture.

(They were all about killing trees back then; with several studies going on simultaneously, using things as radical as spreading fire through Red Cedars in Western Oklahoma, using prop wash from a helicopter, equipped with a Napalm spray rig via 55-gallon barrel attached to the undercarriage of the helicopter. (Your tax dollars at work).  The entire time of the presentation, I was thinking, "Why not cut these trees with a chainsaw and chip or shred them for dog bedding?"  Red Cedar is a natural flea repellent. 

The only trouble with using 'SPIKE' pellets, was that it was a non-selective herbicide. It killed every tree that it came into contact with, so it was only used to wipe a place clean of any kind of trees at all, leaving no shade for your cattle. For that reason, we opted to use chainsaws instead. Our problem trees were Post Oaks.  Our horses ate the sprouts that popped up from the stumps after we cut them down.  We sold the surplus logs for firewood.

However, if a person had a fence row that they wanted to be clear of timber, a small amount of Spike might be just the thing? I don't know if they still make it though? I haven't had any trees to kill in the last couple of decades.





Read more: seedsavingnetwork.proboards.com/thread/187/mulberries?page=2#ixzz6D2uuZmAg

[heavyhitterokra]

Next Post:

I need to look into the Spike. I have too many problem trees where some are 5 yo saplings with roots beneath concrete slabs that I must cut/trim 3 times a year. They won't die.

Read more: seedsavingnetwork.proboards.com/thread/187/mulberries?page=2#ixzz6D2yew1Iv

[heavyhitterokra]

Next reply:

I first heard about SPIKE, at an OSU brush control seminar in 1991. I don't know if they still make that stuff or not? It was a pellet that you broadcast through wooded areas to kill timber in favor of pasture lands.

I found reference to it again today. Below, is the URL to a video, but the video seems to be geared more toward small or young brush and the herbicide is granular in size. The old SPIKE in the early '90s was a pellet sized herbicide that killed full-grown trees.

Keep in mind this is a non-selective herbicide that will kill every tree that it comes into contact with, so if you don't want all the trees dead where you spread this stuff, you might rather use a foliar herbicide spray instead.




Read more: seedsavingnetwork.proboards.com/thread/187/mulberries?page=2#ixzz6D2yygyO6

[heavyhitterokra]

Killer Cow Manure

Today, while reading an article about using cow manure to amend garden soil, I came across some very interesting information about manure contaminated by the use of 'Grazon' that was used as a broadleaf weed killer in pasture lands. The article has some very intriguing photos that look strangely familiar to me, after having had several flats of tomatoes killed a few years ago by using topsoil purchased from Atwoods to fill my seed trays.

I had the topsoil tested afterwards and found that it had been contaminated with herbicide. All the company that produced the topsoil offered me in return for my trouble was to refund my money, plus replace the tomato seedlings.

By that time, I had lost a good deal of time and labor, plus, being certified organic, I was not able to find ready replacements for my lost seedlings. That one episode cost me quite a bit of production time that year which I was not reimbursed for. (Lesson learned) I guess?

Here's a link to the article about cow manure killing garden plants:
www.tenthacrefarm.com/manure-garden/

Buyer beware.

I believe George ran into a very similar problem a few years back, by using hay that had been similarly contaminated.  Maybe, he'll post a comment for us sometime?

[macmex]

Yes indeed! I've already taken down (and stored) the article I did on it in Homesteading Edu. Soon as I can I'll post all of it here. For years we bought hay from a fellow who never used herbicide on his fields, but then he retired. Someone gave us the name of another person who produced square bales and we contacted them, asking them about herbicide use on the field. They told us they hadn't used any herbicide for over two years. But, as it turned out, they had cut the hay, which they sold us, within a year of spraying Grazon. We fed it to our animals and then, as is my custom, I shoveled the manure into the garden. That year most of our tomato plants looked like they were made of plastic and that someone had passed a heat gun over them. Our crop was decimated. It took 5 years for the natural microbes in the soil to eliminate that stuff so that plants grew normally.

Sad to say, now a days, if you buy hay at the feed store it is almost always sprayed hay. If used as mulch yet without going through the digestive tract of an animal first, it probably won't outright kill your garden, but it will cause a low grade condition, in which the garden won't thrive. These herbicides are TERRIBLE and insidious. They leach from the compost and flow with drainage water even into streams and ponds. They are taken up into resistant plants, like grass, and grains and pass through the digestive tracts of the animals that eat those products. Makes me wonder about our wheat! I bet no one is doing any studies about the long term effect of ingesting small amounts of this stuff, for humans!

Anyway, I'll get on it as soon as I can. 
 
Link: Herbicide poisoning of Tomatoes

[heavyhitterokra]

George,

Your description of the plants looking like plastic after a blow torch has passed over them is a very accurate visual description of what my tomato plants looked like after I used contaminated topsoil purchased from Atwoods to fill my seed trays.

Some of the leaves of those plants were half white, half green, most were curly. They looked as if they had been melted, except that my plants died before they were a foot tall . It was very similar to the photos shown in the article above, in reference to using contaminated cow manure.

It's crazy the odds of picking up contaminants nowadays, as compared to only a few decades ago. Cow manure used to be 100% safe to use and was considered good as gold to a gardener. When I was kid, we'd pick up truckloads of the stuff anywhere we could find it and we never had any problems other than weed seeds.

Not so nowadays. I'd say you were more likely to find manure that is contaminated than not. Especially after the way the USDA has been pushing herbicides as an economical alternative to brush hogging and other manual methods of removing unwanted weeds. I've been to seminars where OSU representatives told us, "Unless you just enjoy buying diesel or gasoline and driving your tractor in circles all day long for no good reason, then brush hogging is a total waste of time. You need to be using a broadleaf herbicide instead. One pass with a tractor carrying herbicide versus weekly passes with a brush hog. You do the math."

Thinking like that, since the early '90s has caused widespread use of the stuff to a degree that we cannot even imagine.

The following is an excerpt from an article I wrote back in 2017:

John,

It could have been broadleaf weed killer that killed my tomatoes?  It's been too many years ago. The University's test simply said, "Weed killer in the soil." Maybe I just assumed it was glyphosate?  It caused white streaks to grow up the length of the seedling transplants and killed them before planting time. They were dead by the time they were a foot tall. I only lost the flats that were planted in Atwood's brand of topsoil.

We also found broken glass, clumps of what smelled like used motor oil, pieces of black rubber, like from old tires, and mostly just dirty sand and tree bark in the bags of what they called "Topsoil", almost like they were coming from an old oil well clean-up site or a landfill. (Imagine salvage yard and car crushers). It was a very poor-quality product.

I used to work at Clean America Corporation, where they'd treat oil field contaminated soil from Texas, and Louisiana, by running the contaminated soil through a twin screw, steaming process that resembled side by side grain augers fitted with super heated jets of steam.

The vapor that cooked off the contaminated soil during the steaming process would be distilled and collected into stainless steel containers.  The liquid collected was highly volatile.

The dirty sandy soil that came out the other end of the aparatus was augered off into two-ton plasticized canvas forklift totes and loaded onto a train to go to a disposal site. The stuff inside those totes smelled just like the stuff in the contaminated topsoil bags. (Steamed oil field residue).

[macmex]

Herbicide Contamination in the Garden (Article)




For years I had heard about herbicide contamination in the garden without experiencing it. Our homestead is fairly isolated from field crops, which are often the recipients of broadleaf herbicide treatment. Then some years ago we got hit hard. At first, I thought it was from “drift.” The neighbors had sprayed to kill weeds in their pasture. But it turned out the problem was MUCH worse than that. I started losing plants in gardens which were no where near our property line!

Some crops are more sensitive to herbicide contamination than are others.

Herbicide treatment of pastures and hay fields is now the norm.

We had been hit by a double whammy. Two years previously our hay supplier had retired. He had a laissez-faire approach to hay production, hardly ever using herbicides. His hay had weeds in it, which we appreciated. Our goats prefer weeds to straight hay. But this is not how most hay producers do it. The goal for them is “clean hay,” meaning, no weeds. Far and away most “clean hay” is obtained by use of broadleaf herbicides. The year before this tragedy we purchased from another supplier, picking the hay up from his barn. We asked, and he told us that he hadn’t sprayed herbicides for over two years. What we didn’t know… was that the hay we purchased had been baled within that two year period. Herbicide residual doesn’t degrade in dry, stored hay.

Broadleaf herbicide doesn’t affect grass/hay, yet it is stored in the stems and leaves.

This means that any hay produced, for at least two years after herbicide application, will contain some herbicide. To make matters worse, that herbicide passes through the digestive track of the animals which eat it and is concentrated in the manure. Our double whammy was that we purchased hay from a treated field and we allowed our animals to graze on our neighbor’s treated field. They, of course, returned to poop in their pens, which we then cleaned. Following our custom, we used the “barn scrapings” (manure and hay scraps) to side dress our favorite trees and shrubs, as well as mulch in our vegetable gardens. We used this mulch on our favorite plants, and then… watched as our favorite plants wilted. Many died.

Herbicide contamination in the garden and yard appeared as if by magic!

But it wasn’t magic. It was in the hay, which was then digested by our animals. Then we applied the manure to our garden and trees.

Once herbicide contamination appears, how long its effects last in the garden?

Though about half of my tomato plants recovered (well, sort of) I was surprised that the next year’s plants, planted in the same spots, were damaged for two more growing seasons, and that, nearly as badly as the first year! This stuff is horrible!  (We had signs of herbicide damage four years out from the application of contaminated compost.)




Some crops are more sensitive than others.  I found that c. moschata squash were somewhat resistant to this poisoning. Corn, of course, is not a broadleaf. I didn’t observe any damage to our corn, but I concluded that I don’t want this stuff in my garden AT ALL!


Lambsquarters is especially sensitive to broadleaf herbicide contamination. When affected, it's leaves look mutated or as if they'd been hit by a flamethrower.

Modern use of broadleaf herbicides requires that gardeners who have traditionally depended on manure and mulch, derived from wheat and other commercially raised crops, must change their ways. If they don’t, sooner or later, catastrophe will strike.

[macmex]

I agree, Ron. Happily, Jerreth and I have found another source of herbicide free hay, albeit, in round bales. (Thank God for the tractor!)

But for most gardeners, unless they can find such a source, I wouldn't even recommend using grass clippings from off the curb in suburban areas. Lawn services use the same stuff on lawns. Instead, I'd recommend that gardeners pick up all the leaves they can and get hold of wood chips, as in from the power company. These are still relatively safe.

The other thing I'm thinking is that we need to dedicate areas of the garden to corn and cowpeas, or some such crops which produce LOTS of biomass. Then, instead of throwing the stuff away or burning it, we use it for mulch or compost. I'm using lots of cardboard under my mulch. I have access to lots of cardboard at work. Then, though it looks shabby, I use it to cover soil, using weeds, etc. to hold it down.

[heavyhitterokra]

I've never grown comfrey for biomass production, but I've met people who swear by it. That might be something to consider. Also, Austrian Winter Peas are a blessing when it comes to needing something easy to grow for biomass.  For a summer crop, peanuts are good for your soil and they are fairly easy to grow too.  

[heavyhitterokra]

Bon, your Johnson Grass as a filler comment reminded me; one Summer, Josh and I tried to mimic the digestive system of a cow by using an old 20' foot wide tarp as an intestine and filling it with green grass, some topsoil for the enzymes, some actual green cow manure and a little chicken litter as a source of needed digestive bacteria, some wheat straw for the carbon, and as a balance for all the green stuff, and a little lime to balance out the pH.  Then, we rolled it up like a giant burrito and left it in the hot, June, and July sun to bake. We tied a rope around it and used the van to flip it over once per day, because it was too heavy to roll over by hand.

After about two weeks, it was probably only half the size it was when we first stuffed it full. It stunk almost as bad as the real thing, and within a month, it was fully digested into a green, gooey mess. It made some compost that was wonderful, but it was too much work to keep it going all Summer and still have any time left to pick and sell our produce. Back then, we still had 9 local restaurants, 2 grocery stores, and a health food store to keep stocked with fresh veggies.

Come August, we planted a peach tree in the middle of that stuff that we bought for $2.00 in a gallon pot. It had gotten blown over in the hot parking lot and was in such bad shape they almost gave it to us for free. By the end of the next Summer, that little peach tree had grown 10 feet tall, 10 feet wide, and had a trunk almost the size of a baseball bat. I took a picture of it to the store to show the woman who sold us the tree, but she wouldn't believe us that it was the same one that she had sold us.

If a person didn't have a truck farm to maintain, a project like that would certainly be worth the effort when it comes to growing super good-looking plants the following season.

We got the idea from reading the book, "How to Grow World Record Tomatoes" by Charles Wilber, and just added to it because we needed a good Science experiment to keep our minds busy that Summer.  Probably, a person could do the same thing with a compost tumbler, but we couldn't afford one of those and opted for a 2nd hand tarp instead.  The tarp was destroyed by the process, but was well worth it for the experience!

[heavyhitterokra]

We both grew up on a farm and both had seen tons of cow manure lying about in the pastures. Every Spring, the grass is greener in a circle around the place where the piles of manure had lain each Winter. I think it was probably a mutual idea to try and see if we could do it ourselves on a larger scale than a cow could.

[rdback]

heavyhitterokra I read over in the heavyhitterokra thread about how you're experiencing terrible results this year due to contaminated compost. That caused me to remember Joe Lamp'l had the same problem. I'm not sure if you know who he is, but he's been around for a while, especially on PBS. Here's a link to his article: Joe Lamp'l Killer Compost article. This happened to him almost ten years ago. I thought you might find it interesting.

I also found links at the bottom of his article to the US Composting Council. I didn't know there was such a Council. I did a search for "persistent herbicides" on their site and found lots of information about contaminated compost. There's also a way to report your experience to them. You might want to check them out as well.

US Composting Council

[heavyhitterokra]

Rdback,

Thanks, for that information. I had never heard of the US Composting Counsil either. I had a farm visit from OSU this morning, they took a plant sample back to their office for testing, and I have someone from the ODAFF coming out tomorrow morning to take a soil sample off to have it tested to verify what I already know, but without verification, people always question your claims. Maybe, eventually, we'll get the word out to the public at large that using cow manure is no longer an option for gardening.

[woodeye]

Thank You again, heavyhitterokra for taking the time to deal with this very serious malady, which has the potential to cause catastrophic consequences for all of us...  

[chrysanthemum]

I found an interesting article recently that suggests that growing cover crops (and then disposing of the crop rather than tilling it in or composting it) can help remove persistent herbicides from soil.

It also talks about tilling, watering, and adding non-contaminated organic matter as a way of increasing microbial activity, which speeds the breakdown of the herbicide (though the breakdown can still take a long time).

I thought it was an interesting article and had some value to add to this thread for those who may have suffered already from herbicide contamination.

pesticides.montana.edu/reference/contamination.html


heavyhitterokra , has there been any word on your soil or plant tests, or is it too soon?