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Post by macmex on Nov 13, 2019 9:43:06 GMT -6
I thought I'd start a thread, dedicated to meat rabbits. Rabbits have tremendous potential to produce huge amounts of nutritious meat and large amounts of great manure, which can be applied to the garden without any composting.
Jerreth and I inherited some rabbits and cages, the first summer we were married, in 1981. For not knowing much about them, we did pretty well. I set them up in an old shed and fed them with commercial rabbit feed. Part way through that year someone gave us even more rabbits, as some renters skipped out on them, leaving their caged rabbits abandoned. Those rabbits were in such questionable condition that we simply butchered them for the freezer.
We skipped raising rabbits from 1982 until 1988, as we were in seminary/graduate school, then in language school, to learn Spanish. When we moved to Mexico we landed in a very rural environment. There, we soon started experimenting with rabbits again, as there was great need among rural people, to eat better. There was abundant vegetation. Rabbits seemed like a great idea. For five years we learned to raise rabbits with very little commercial input. To get cages or rabbit feed one had to travel over 100 miles. The people with whom we rubbed shoulders, largely couldn't afford cages or commercial feed. But they had corn, they had forage and they could obtain some chicken wire and inexpensive wood. We figured out how to make serviceable cages, , nest boxes, waterers and feeders from local materials. At the time, all motor oil in Mexico came packaged in metal 1 liter cans. These cans were wonderful for making feeders and waterers. Local beekeepers even used them to make homemade smokers. I used to joke that the rural Mexican could make anything out of an oil can!
Rabbitry in rural Puebla was a success. Our family enjoyed the meat and we shared what we learned with all around us (anyone interested).
In 1993 we were transferred to serve at a Bible Institute in the State of Hidalgo. We took our rabbitry with us as others involved with the Bible Institute were of the opinion that we could help the school produce some of its own meat for feeding students and staff. We had student labor, as part of the deal for subsidizing their tuitiion. Most of our students came from a rural back ground. At this time the Mexican government was also promoting rabbitry as a means to better the diet of its people. Roadside restaurants, serving smoked or roasted rabbits began to spring up all over the country. The Bible Institute not only raised meat for its own consumption, they also began selling rabbits to people outside the school. This helped the Bible Institute financially. Here's a photo from the Bible Institute. At one point we were producing from 10 does! That's A WHOLE LOT OF RABBIT!
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Post by macmex on Nov 14, 2019 9:38:45 GMT -6
During the first year we were in Mexico I came across some material by a group called Editores Mexicanos Unidos. I think this was somehow connected with the Mexican government. At any rate, the material was outstanding. It's a shame that it went out of print shortly after I got it. I treasured that material for over a decade, before losing it in one of our moves. This material was unique in that it reflected the needs of rural Mexicans who had no access to factory produced cages and equipment and little access to prepared feeds. It gave great instructions for how to raise and process rabbits in a truly rustic environment, even outlining how, in extreme need, one could make a floor using something like bamboo. Of course, they prefered wire, but if necessary, one could make do with bamboo, and replace the floor frequently. The author(s) made the point that the floor is the most important part of the cage, as the rabbits have constant contact with it. They did point out that 1/2" hardware cloth made a very good floor when used in a homemade cage. I quickly figured out how to make cage floors, like "panes," which could be switched out when needed. We used wooden, homemade cages for most of our time in Mexico.
In the USA, we have found that one can often find all wire cages for a good price. Actually, the majority of our own cages were given to us by a friend whose kids had made them years ago. She had just upgraded her cages and these, though about 20 years old, were still quite usable. After nearly 10 years of using them continuously, I've just started changing out the floors. I'll try to get some photos of this. The tools and materials to do this are not expensive, and it's easy to do.
Wire cages have the advantage of being easier to santitize. It's of utmost importance that the cages be santitized a couple times a year. Otherwise pathogens can build up and affect the rabbits. It's insidious, as most often disease in rabbits sneaks up on you. They start to drop off in production, producing smaller litters, which in turn, grow more slowly. This is usually due to the build up of coccidiosis.
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Post by macmex on Nov 14, 2019 20:14:56 GMT -6
What I've started using to repair my wire cages are J clips. There's a special pliers for working with them. They're cheap and easy. Also, here's the company I purchased new floors from. Shipping was high, but this company is really trustworthy and knowledgeable. I purchased 14 gauge wire floors.
Klubertanz cage materials
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Post by heavyhitterokra on Nov 16, 2019 9:03:33 GMT -6
This is a really good thread, George. Thanks, for posting.
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Post by macmex on Dec 23, 2019 20:27:29 GMT -6
Age? Sex? Hopefully at least two does. Trust that this works out really well for you Bon!
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Post by macmex on Dec 28, 2019 5:49:16 GMT -6
I prefer 36X24" cages. I have some which are 30X24", which were given to me years ago. I use them for a buck or to grow out a couple young ones, but I really wouldn't replace them after they're gone. They're so short that when I introduce a doe to a buck, in one of them, the buck will sometimes struggle to get in position to mate. He's happy enough in that size cage, but it's a pain for me. 30X24" might be alright for medium to small breeds.
In the last year or so, I purchased J clip pliers and clips and have been able to easily repair my wire cages. One packet of clips looks like it may last me a lifetime!
Example of J Clip Pliers
One can order the wire, precut, and of various qualities, from this company. I understand that Klubertanz Equipment Co. is tops. I thought their customer service was great, but shipping for this kind of material is expensive. I paid over $80 for four cage floors. Still, they were custom cut and galvanized for the size (some odd) of my inherited cages.
Sometime, I need to do some sleuthing and see if I can find such wire material in Tulsa.
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Post by macmex on Dec 28, 2019 5:53:19 GMT -6
Some meat breeds are much larger than the New Zealand. Presently, two out of three of my does are about 1/4 Checkered Giant. They are really big, and, of course a large cage is necessary. The larger cage size works for them. I have one doe who is about 1/4 Dutch (a very small breed). She would work fine in a smaller cage. She produces very well, as the other 3/4 part of her is New Zealand, but her kits take a couple more weeks to reach acceptable butchering size. I've been experimenting with her, as my perception is that she has better heat resistance than the larger rabbits.
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Post by macmex on Dec 28, 2019 20:16:28 GMT -6
There's a whole lot involved, in answering your question about a "grow out container," and I may not correctly understand the question.
A doe should produce between 6 and 14 kits per litter. I've only had a few produce 14, and never one who could sustain more than 13. If they have fewer than 6, twice, I eat them and start with another doe.
Realistically, you can hope for four litters a year, per doe. They don't "take" every time they are bred. I have one which is due to kindle next week, that I was so sure she had been bred and was going to kindle about a month ago. She wasn't pregnant! So that robs some time from my breeding program.
Each litter requires its own cage and that cage will be occupied between 8 and 12 weeks per litter.
Another important principle is that for each breeding doe one has, they need two cages. one for her, and one for her litters. The kits will stay with her, in her cage for the first 5 weeks. But then they should be separated (no later than 9 weeks of age) so that there's no chance of her getting bred by a son, and so that she can be rebred for another litter. Generally, the day one removes her litter for weaning, she will be fertile and ready to breed again. She'll have another litter at least two weeks before her previous litter will be ready to butcher. Hence, one needs two cages per doe.
If I breed all three does at one time, then I am going to need six cages to deal with them and their kits, not to mention a cage for each buck, as bucks must live in their own cages, alone. Presently I only have 7 cages in my rabbitry, and I have two bucks. So I would definitely be short a cage if I bred all three at once. I would also be swamped in rabbit meat, and this, in spite of the fact that our family eats a lot of rabbit. But since it is not uncommon for a doe to suddenly fail, at around the 2 year mark, I keep three, and rotate breeding, as if I only had two. That way, if I lose a doe, I don't have to wait for a new one to mature, before breeding her.
I actually have at least one more cage, which could be put to service. But I'd have to hang it in the chicken coop, as there's no more room in my rabbit shed. I would only every put kits in the chicken coop, as adult rabbits get stressed by close contact with that many chickens. They don't do well at all when immersed in the hen house, but kits seem to do alright.
One can't really combine litters into one cage, unless:
1) That cage is really large, as in something like 60X30," and ...
2) That the two litters are removed, each from then own cage, and combined at the same time, into the new "grow out cage."
If one litter gets established in a new cage, and another litter is later added, there will be awful fighting. Some animals are likely to get very hurt. Some might even die.
I haven't grown greens for my rabbits in the winter, for lack of a light, warm place to do it. I do cut weeds for them, all during the warmer seasons. I try to feed weeds instead of hay, whenever possible. They prefer the actual greens, and it saves money.
Okay, hope this helps. Those are great questions!
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Post by macmex on Dec 29, 2019 5:43:00 GMT -6
Actually, one can combine kits from different litters at about any age, as long as they don't place any rabbits in a cage with another rabbit which has had time to adjust to that cage and claim it as their own. So the best way to combine kits from different litters is to take kits from "cage A" and from "cage B" and put them simultaneously in "cage C."
The AC unit sounds simply wonderful. This should give you several months more of production time. I don't breed our rabbits during the hot months, since we only use shade and multiple fans to keep them cool. We try to keep stress at a minimum for them.
Rabbits would be a feasible option for someone wanting to raise meat in an urban environment, as it could be done without anyone noticing. If I recall correctly, they were extremely popular during the World Wars, in much of Europe as well as in the USA. They've fallen out of favor, pretty much, in the USA. I believe this is in part due to "Bugs Bunny" and in part due to the way our regulatory law system makes it difficult to sell meat. Until recently, there was NO FDA approved slaughter house for rabbits in all of Oklahoma, and the one near Fayetteville, AR was difficult to get access to. Still, we raise them for ourselves and sell a few on a personal basis. One time I swapped 9 frozen rabbits for a newly weaned milk doe (goat). She turned out to be one of the best milkers we've ever had, and I thought the deal was great!
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Post by heavyhitterokra on Dec 29, 2019 9:43:45 GMT -6
I love hearing 'Trade stories' I like trading better than I like buying and selling. Those are some great questions, Bon, keep them coming. I enjoy reading the continuing conversation. It has been a lot of years since I've raised any rabbits. Their litter is the best garden amendment I know of.
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Post by macmex on Dec 29, 2019 13:11:20 GMT -6
I can see that, Ron. Trading can be fun, and it can also be good for building relationships.
Bon, That 42 day breeding schedule might work well. As a rule, I would still want the finishing cages. Life happens, and butchering can be delayed. Back in the Bible Institute, we had young does get bred, while butchering was delayed. It's really sad to butcher a rabbit and discover that it was pregnant.
Also, the standard size carcass, produced on a commercial scale is, in my opinion, kind of measly. I like mine larger, which takes a couple more weeks to attain. It's a matter of preference, I suppose.
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Post by macmex on Jan 5, 2020 5:47:05 GMT -6
Sounds like Bill really knows his stuff. I believe he's right on, about the burn marks on the wire. That's WONDERFUL that you were able to find it without ordering y mail. Postage eats a person up. I think you folks are headed on the right path!
I have been using this kind of waterer for ages.
The top can be putt onto a 2 liter soda bottle, which, though somewhat cumbersome, would work pretty well. A regular soda bottle is just a bit too small for my regimen.
Though you aren't talking about this one, I'll include it here, for others. Don't buy the flip top waterers. I found this one at Tractor Supply. The flip tops are very costly and highly impractical, especially during cold weather.
When night time temps get down below 29 F. I like to go out, grab all the waterers and bring them indoors, where I melt them in a pot of water, on top of the wood stove. Another trick is, to have twice the number of waterers and simply swap out frozen bottles with warm/full ones. I then bring the frozen ones into the house and let them thaw while I'm at work. This saves a ton of time and much suffering on my part.
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Post by macmex on Jan 5, 2020 18:42:35 GMT -6
At one point I had purchased a bag of extra washers (for the waterers). Then I found that I can simply tighten the lids a bit tighter, and they don't leak. More than half of my waterers are now without washers and only occasionally do I find that one leaked out.
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Post by rdback on Jan 6, 2020 19:53:28 GMT -6
I like the way Miss Grace thinks. Miss Grace for President! lol
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Post by macmex on Jan 11, 2020 18:16:48 GMT -6
I'm glad. Somehow I had missed the first post about the rabbit that scratched. I don't trust any of them not to scratch. But when properly handled most are okay.
I've found that does which have just kindled (had babies) are sometimes kind of fierce, and will go after me when I am cleaning the cage or feeding. Just have to be aware of it and perhaps place one hand on the scruff of their neck, lightly holding them in place, while cleaning with the other hand. They're only protecting their young, but they could hurt a person!
For those who don't know, here's a photo of how to hold a rabbit. NEVER hold them by the ears. That's for magicians in cartoons!
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