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Post by glen on Jul 31, 2017 19:47:46 GMT -6
Several years ago George was nice enough to arrange to have this small bag of Oaxacan creme beans sent to me. I have already tried to grow it out and I failed. This was almost 2 years ago. The vines were not happy. They attracted a lot of pests. They were thin. They got so bad I sort of gave up on them. I had quite a lot going on at the time. However, the vines made sort of a come back and actually bloomed. I did see a few small pods. There was actually a few seeds harvested. I gave up on this seed at the time after that experience. Not long ago I did see the seeds in my seed saving bag in the freezer and I got another look at them. This is some very attractive seed. It is kind of an ivory colored seed, fat and roundish in appearance. I think this seed deserves a second chance. So, I am going to try my hardest to grow a few vines out and to save the seed. I asked George to resend me the information he has compiled on this seed and I am going to copy the letter onto this thread so we have a back-story to help keep this trial interesting. This seed is sort of an unknown soldier. To us, it is rare. This seed comes from somewhere in Mexico in the Oaxacan province. I imagine it is still grown there somewhere, quietly and without fanfare. I cannot imagine why the people would quit growing this bean. It is beautiful and easy to like. I cannot remember exactly what the pods looked like. George describes them. I am going to ask George to post pictures of the vines on this thread so you can see how beautiful it is. Hopefully this thread will be a new beginning for Oaxacan creme bean. Not an obituary. Because if I cannot successfully grow it out this beautiful bean variety will disappear again. I have 2 small pots, 4 gallons each right now, outside, near the fence. There are 3 Oaxacan creame bean seedlings in each pot. I am going to seperate the pots by about 6 feet and let the vines crawl on the 6 foot fence fabric. The soil in the pots is just dirt with about one third Abonat which is composted saw-dust that I buy here by the bag. I mix it in all my garden soil since the soil is so poor. Soil is full of rocks that I have to pick out and is part clay and part sand and has this third world brown ugly dead color to it. The compost re-conditions the soil. No, its not as good as what you have in your yard probably. But, we are going to work with it. I am using miracle grow. I will use a half-strength formula in a hand watering can and apply that every 2 weeks. I will also use pyrethrin based spray for the inevitable pests. I am not really worried about the pest spray since this is strictly a seed saving mission. I am not going to allow pests to destroy my plants. I live in a short day environment which means that our day length is less than 13 hours every month of the year. Some months it is less than 12 hours I believe. I have seen this vine bloom in the first trial so I know that this grow-out has a chance. George believes that this vine is photo-period sensitive. I believe that all plants are affected by length of day. Some less than others. This will be a trial. I can fail. Thats part of gardening. Hopefully this project will rescue Oaxacan creme bean. Maybe we can find others that will take the seed under their wing. Keeping it around.
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Post by glen on Jul 31, 2017 20:44:11 GMT -6
Oaxaca Cream Pole Bean Glen, I took some time, today, to gather up some info for you about this bean. It is truly a great bean. Wish I could grow it here! I received seed for it, in 2000, from a friend named Aurelio Cruz, who carried the seed up from the Sierra of Oaxaca, probably from one of the villages near the one called El Rincón, a little further out from the state capital (Oaxaca) than the town of Ixlán de Juárez, birthplace of Benito Juárez.. Though living in Ixmiquilpan, Hidalgo (same town as I was), which is quite a ways from Oaxaca, Aurelio, I believe had relatives on his wife’s side from the Sierra of Oaxaca. Aurelio knew how I like to garden and save seeds, and one day he showed up with a large bag of snaps and a little bag of seed. He told me that this was a bean that they had brought up from the Sierra of Oaxaca and that he and his family grew it in their patio. Usually they would plant it under a pomegranate or lemon tree and it would grow up into the branches, producing an abundance of snaps. Ixmiquilpan is right at 20 degrees latitude. Ixlán de Juárez, the closest larger town, to this bean's origins, is considerably farther South. I have hope that it will do well at your latitude. Originally I sent some seed to Merry Youle, a Seed Savers Exchange member in Hawaii. I dubbed it Oaxaca Cream, after the color of the seed. Aurelio had given me no name. As is usually the case among indigenous folk in Mexico, they just called it something like “that nice big snap bean which so-and-so brought back from Oaxaca.” After sending seed to Merry I stuck the little bag of seed in my seed box and … forgot about it. Of course there was a lot going on in our lives. I had came down with Typhoid and battled with it, on and off for over a year, and my home church in NJ started talking about calling us home to pastor there (which they did, in 2001). Anyway, I completely forgot about this bean. Then, in 2004, when rummaging around for seed of Tennessee Cutshort, to do a second planting, I came upon this little sack of beans. By that time, their skins had oxidized enough to look like Tennessee Cutshort seed. So, I planted them all. But though they grew and grew they didn’t flower until sometime in September! When they formed pods, I knew I had accidentally planted another bean, and then…I remembered Aurelio’s gift! That year (2004) was the only year I ever managed to get this bean to produce in the United States, except for one year, when I grew a few in a bucket and put them on our sun porch to finish off. But that didn't produce much seed. Merry Youle, on the other hand, was in love with this bean. She kept it going and, recently told me that it is now the only bean she grows. The pods are large and easy to pick. The pod quality is excellent. And, being a pole variety, it one hardly ever has to bend over to pick them! This variety has purple flowers and very round meaty pods with heavy strings. Some pods are pretty much purple and some are green drying down pale green/yellow. Mature pods are up to 7” in length. This variety is excellent for snaps, shell or dry, as the seed shells out easily. However it is definitely day length sensitive. In 2004, in New Jerseyt only started flowering in September. I harvested the pods, still not dried down, at 151 days after planting, on November 8, 2004. Here's an interesting side note. Oaxaca Cream is a Greasy Bean, meaning that the pods lack the microscopic hairs that most beans have. If held under the light of an incandescent lamp, the pods appear to be shiny, as if dipped in bacon greasy, which is the traditional description of a greasy bean's appearance. This is the only greasy bean that I have ever heard of in Mexico. But then, I doubt anyone there even thinks to examine their snap bean pods under an incandescent lamp! What's really interesting to me, it that years ago, while researching greasy beans, I ran across the claim that all greasy beans trace their origin back to the Cherokee, that the mutation first appeared in Cherokee fields. I have no evidence to prove it, but I like to think that perhaps this bean carries genes from Cherokee seed. Not too many people, these days, realize that after the Civil War, there was quite a bit of persecution of the Cherokee. Part of the tribe had sided with the Confederacy. At one point an entire branch of the Cherokee tribe, tired of the attacks, fled into Mexico. Sequoyah, the greatest leader of the Cherokee, being now an old man, actually went looking for them. Until recent years no one knew exactly whatever became of him. But finally, they not only found his grave, but also that group of Cherokee! I believe this group settled in the North of Mexico, which is very far away from Oaxaca. But, you never know who traveled and to where! Of course, the other possibility, is that the greasy trait arose independently in Oaxaca! www.cherokeenationofsequoyah.com/ It was our friend Merry Youle, who sent the seed. It should be with your friend, out West, by now. Here are a couple of pictures for you. George, please do this thread another favor and post those 2 photo's of this legume on this thread. You really out did yourself with this letter and we do appreciate it.
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Post by macmex on Aug 1, 2017 5:41:38 GMT -6
Here are two pictures of this bean. The flowers are beautiful. This picture was taken October 8, 2008, in my back yard (near Tahlequah, Oklahoma). Day length sensitive varieties often grow shorter as one gets closer to the equator (short days) and taller as they are grown further away from it (long days).Here are the pods. They're nice size, fat and tender podded. They have strings. When they are strung, the pods remain tender when the seed is well filled out. This picture was taken November 11, 2008. Our first frost is normally around October 20. I grew these in a bucket and carried it indoors when frost threatened. Not all beans' height is affected by day length. I grew Barksdale Wax Pole at the 20th parallel (not far from Mexico City). It had exactly the same growth habit there as here (47th parallel). Oaxaca Cream was a vigorous climber, climbing lemon trees (probably up to 10 or 12'. If I'd given it more pole, I think it would do the same here. I don't understand why I managed to get such a great seed crop in NJ, back in 2004. A couple of factors might be: 1) I planted it quite late, not even planning to get seed. 2) We had a very late first frost 3) The planting was somewhat shaded by surrounding woods.
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Post by glen on Aug 2, 2017 15:08:50 GMT -6
Today I moved my pots full of bean stalks to their permanent location. They will be recieving quite a bit of shade for awhile, until the bean stalks start climbing up the trellis. There is 6 vines now. I will wait awhile before posting a foto. It will be a long time before I have a foto nearly as nice as the above 2 money shots. Thanx George for sharing those nice fotos. The actual money is the seed. Once I get a bowel full of seed you can bet I will post a foto of that on this thread also. Take a close look at the blooms on the one photo. They are concentrated. There are so many you can't even count them. In the right conditions you would just be covered over in pods. Take a look at the fat pods. I am counting 9 or 10 seeds per pod. The seed is fat and roundish and has this sort of antique off-white coloring, aged, ivory in color. Almost like pearls. I have never seen anything like it in the grocery store. No wonder Mary Youle, describes this variety as "Superb". Definitely a classy bean if there ever was such a thing. We just need some good luck and we will be in the money in a few months.
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Post by philagardener on Aug 5, 2017 19:37:34 GMT -6
Hi glen , I happen to know a Merry Youle on Mauna Loa (lives in a small house called "The Nutshell") - it's an uncommon enough name, could it be the same person who was the original source of these beans?
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Post by glen on Aug 5, 2017 20:43:04 GMT -6
Hi Philagardener. You will need to contact George and ask him. I do not personally know this woman. She is nice enough to have shared this seed with us. She must be a really nice lady. The vines are still small right now by the way. But, growing.
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Post by philagardener on Aug 6, 2017 4:51:46 GMT -6
Thanks, glen , for your quick response. I'll check in with macmex . I hope these beans do well for you - sounds like they will be fairly late.
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Post by macmex on Aug 6, 2017 5:36:25 GMT -6
Yes, that's the same person! We've corresponded with Merry since around 1990, exchanging letters, emails and various gifts. She's a remarkable woman.
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Post by philagardener on Aug 6, 2017 12:53:40 GMT -6
What a small world! Amazing! (I ran into her in a totally different context - didn't know she was a seed saver!)
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Post by glen on Aug 6, 2017 21:09:22 GMT -6
Philagardener. These beans are going to be late. But, I started em late. They have only been growing for about 10 days or so. Maybe a Little less. I can't figure out the seasons here in Panama. Our Summer here is actually your Winter. I think. We have a rainy season that starts in May and ends in December. I can't figure it out. At this point I don't know when the best time is to plant anything. The first time I planted these beans I think was in September. I actually cannot remember how long it was before they bloomed. I do remember having a heck of a time with these vines. They just didn't do well. Right now, the vines look nice. One pot has vines that are twice as big as the other and they are already climbing. No insect damage yet. The vines are real skinny now. I am waiting awhile before I put a photo up. There just isn't much to show right now. I don't remember these vines getting real big either. No where near as big as what George is showing in the photo which is just gorgious. Oh, by the way George, once we get some decent photo's posted you should let Mary Youle know that we are trialing this variety and we are going to try and rescue it and share seed, God willing. We haven't had any good sun since last April which I am not used to at all. Everything is growing differently. Okra hates this weather. The last 2 seasons we were in drought and we had plenty of sun. Everything grew like wildfire during the rainy season(not much rain). This season everything is going in slow motion with most days being over-cast. And, lots of rain. So, I have no idea anymore when to plant. I guess I am just going to have to plant all year and hope for the best.
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Post by glen on Aug 7, 2017 20:27:42 GMT -6
I spoke too soon. Yesterday I said no insect damage. Today there was. They attacked one pot and ate entire leaves. Out of three vines there is only 2 leaves visible. I sprayed. In fact I panic sprayed. I didn't see what it is that ate the leaves. Vines are delicate in appearance. And, growing actively in that pot and climbing. If they just keep growing and climbing many new leaves will appear. We have a lot of grasshoppers now in the yard and also young iguana's. I haven't seen this many young iguana hatchlings ever. They hang out on the okra plants but do not eat them. Well, I haven't seen them eat any nor have I seen damage. However, they might have eaten some bean leaves. They eat the entire leaves. They strip em off. Whole. I believe they got into my bittermelon vines as well. They just strip the bittermelon vines also. Grasshoppers eat holes in the leaves. Iguana's eat the whole thing. Its really not a big problem yet. Except that the bean vines are so young. Once they get size to em it won't matter. The other day I saw a real big iguana in a big palm tree. It was old as hell looking with all kinds of spikes and scary stuff all over him and he was at least 6 feet long from head to tail. You don't see many that big around here cause the locals will hunt them down and eat em. We don't see that much wild life actually here where I live. They killed it all as well as cut down all the dry forest. I don't even see many snakes. I just want to see these beans make a come back. I am root'n for em.
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Post by glen on Aug 11, 2017 16:33:55 GMT -6
I am quite excited to see that we have some interest in this little pole bean project. Its going slow. But,they are climbing now. I sent a pic to George today on the cell phone. Its still early. The vines are very "slimmy". I just learned that word today. That means the vines are skinny. Or, thin and they just climbing away. It's going slow. I have been busy lately with other things but when the vines grow some more and put on a few more leaves and just have more to show, there will be photo's posted on this thread. I think its going to take some months for this vine to put on blooms. They aren't going to be in a hurry. I check them every day. Just to make sure they aren't being over-run by grass-hoppers and iguana's. Once they get established they are going to take off. And, they should start getting real fat vines eventually. Beans vines get huge here since we don't ever have a cold day here. You just have to watch out for insects. They can get real bad here on beans. I am not an organic gardener just to make sure everyone knows this. I use as little pesticide as I can get away with but I am not going to allow bugs to destroy these vines. I am also using miracle grow. There are only 6 vines in 2 pots. I am going to give them whatever it is they want. This project is a trial. And, it is all about producing seed and rescuing this beautiful bean. We are going to get it done.
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Post by glen on Aug 17, 2017 20:16:25 GMT -6
I don't have a lot of experience with pole beans. I used to grow some of the common variety's of pole bean when I was growing up. I always just bought my seeds from the hardware store. I called em string beans or pole beans. At the time, I didn't know the difference from one bean to the other. You know, too busy with other thoughts to worry about such a thing as what variety of pole bean I might be growing or the history of the variety or who might have grown this variety a long time ago. Beans are beans. I remember growing bush beans. Remember Blue Lake beans? You always saw them in the hardware store. Always. They grew good also as they are a good ole stand bye. And, I grew em. How can you not like Blue Lake bush beans? The worst thing I can think about em is picking em. What a back-breaker that job is. A 25 foot row of Blue Lake bush beans will put on a heck of a harvest as those Little bushy beans really put it on. When you are done picking those plants you are going to know it. Or, should I say, your back is going to talk to ya. You will have a mountain of beans when you are done and you have to think on your feet. What in the heck are we going to do with all these beans? Well, I haven't grown Blue Lake beans for a long time but that is what I remember about em. And, I thought that beans were beans. I never thought for a second that there might be other variety's out there, let alone heirloom variety's that people grew for a long time before I came around. Different variety's that tell a part of a cultures history. Why would anyone bother growing Blue Lake beans? There are too many other variety's out there to try. Like Oaxahan Creme beans. I am happy to try to rescue this bean.
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Post by glen on Aug 19, 2017 19:39:28 GMT -6
I am renovating my fence on the SW side of my home lot. There will be a 6 foot cyclone fence installed. I have cut down the papaya and some other things. I have decided to buy more 4 gallon pots and will try growing more climbing type beans on this fence. Have you ever tried growing pole beans using pots? Well, I am just starting to do this. I will have about 85 feet of 6 foot tall fence for the beans to climb on. I still don't know how the oaxacan creme beans are going to do. If they do well I will plant more. If not, I have the indigenous long bean to grow in its place. It grows like hell bent for election. It grows faster than the oaxacan creme. Bigger. Thicker. Yes, this is a genuine Jack in the bean stalk kind of bean. But, I prefer to grow the more exotic oaxacan creme. I hope it will perform well. The plants look a Little yellowish in color. They are just growing slow. I can't judge em yet because I don't have enough experience with em. But that long bean. I am still trying to beat that variety. They are just a boring Green in color vigourous and fast growing vine with beautiful Green long pods. They have red seeds. Small in size. They are long lived also and get real thick vines. Insects love em. But, they love all beans here. Go Oaxacan creme. I hope they make it cause if they don't I can't help it I go back to the long beans.
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Post by macmex on Aug 20, 2017 8:30:53 GMT -6
I grew Oaxaca Cream in a five gallon bucket in 2008. That's the only way I could get it to produce seed, here in Oklahoma. It didn't grow nearly as vigorously as when grown in the ground. But it did produce seed.
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