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Post by macmex on Dec 9, 2017 18:55:39 GMT -6
Glen, I'd say your experimental planting has been a great success! Thanks for doing this! I'm looking forward to getting some seed!
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Post by glen on Dec 9, 2017 21:48:22 GMT -6
George, I have quite a bit of seed going out on Monday. There is still mail that Ron has not recieved that was sent on Sept 18 which is 80 days. I have never had any mail lost but this time I am worried. We'll just keep trying I guess.
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Post by glen on Dec 10, 2017 17:08:10 GMT -6
Today I have been cleaning up the shade house in preparation for the dry season. A shade house in Panama is sort of a Green house except it is not covered with plastic. I have a square structure built in the back yard. The floor is gravel and rest is a square framed structure about 18 feet long and 10 feet wide. The roof is just old lumber laying across about a foot apart or so. I put any old junk Wood up there I can find. This gives me shade inside the shade house. Plants need a certain amount of shade during the dry season here since the sun is so bright and powerful. It can just shrivel up the plants. I also will be recieving a steady wind starting in about a month that probably averages about 20 mph and just keeps on coming for months. There will be no rain and this wind just sucks the moisture right out of the plants. Its a challenging time to garden. Temps will be in the 90's every day forever. I have already started planting bean seeds. I have planted oahacan creme seed and also those big red kidney beans. I don't know if the kidney beans are pole beans or not but I think they probably are. They are a locally grown bean. If not that is ok cause I am primarily growing the mexican creme beans. I planted some on the cow pasture side of the structure also which will give the cows an opportunity for a snack. I decided I needed to try this since I have never tried it. Will the cows totally kill the vines? This variety does not put on beans in the first half of the length of the vines. It waits and puts on pods high up. My hope is that the cows will only munch the lower level leaves and not kill the vines. The vines can climb 10 feet or even higher. As much 12 or 13 feet. So they may survive. At any rate, there is going to be other plantings in different sides of the structure as well. Can the vines survive the high winds and dry weather? I think so but we shall see. This is an experiment. The beans are out of their confort zone I do believe. I have never seen this type of bean here in Panama. The dry season is not my favorite time of year to garden. Its super hot and windy. No relief. We also get White fly during the dry season. White fly brings virus. The dreaded leaf curl virus an well as yellow mosaic virus. If I see the White fly or the virus that is a disaster. My only recourse is to destroy all the plants if this problema visits. I need a dose of very good luck I think.
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Post by glen on Dec 14, 2017 20:43:40 GMT -6
I have planted beans on 3 sides of the shade house. I am starting to see nice germination on the cow pasture side first. I used those sedes in the photo that look like they are already starting to germinate on the nieghbors side of the yard. I didn't want to waste them. Well, germination is spotty on those sedes so I will replant with good quality seed. Based on what I am seeing so far the new seed is fine. On the other side I used the original seed that had been in the freezer for a few years. It has not started to germinate. Those sedes had changed color and were really copper colored in appearance. If I don't get good germination in a couple of days I will replant with new seed. I am pretty excited about this planting since we are using seed I produced and also since we are now in the dry season. This could be a good thing for this pole bean. Most pole beans are not suited to tropical rainy seasons. The winds have started early this year also so if I use a sprinkler the moisture will dry quickly off the plants. I can also hand wáter if I want to also and avoid getting wáter on the foliage which can encourage fungal issues and additional pests. I don't consider growing this pole bean easy. Its not a beginners Project in my opinión. A lot can go wrong.
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Post by glen on Dec 15, 2017 12:29:29 GMT -6
I wonder if this bean will ever produce enough for me to use it as a dried bean? The beans are kind of small. I don't know yet about its production for dried bean use. Today I ate pinto beans. Or, Painted beans. Or, chilean beans. Whatever the name is. I remember them as Pinto's. Now thats a good bean. Big, meaty and with a special gravy that comes with it. Like no other. Thats what I like. I am not sure where the lowly Pinto originates from. What a great bean though. Probably a bush bean. Right now, as this oahacan bean is still rare, it would seem a shame to use it for dried beans when I can buy a lb of good pinto's for a buck. We'll have to see.
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Post by glen on Dec 15, 2017 15:48:23 GMT -6
By the way, seed harvest has been way over 500 seeds. There are hundreds still outside waiting to be ready to pick. Even if I get 1000 seeds it probably won't even be anywhere near a lb of seed. 30 dried seeds in a plastic bag, then put in a brown envelope still only wieghed .17 of an ounce. Today I replanted some of the seed in areas where I used old seed. The old seed did not want to germinate any longer. It had turned a terrible dark copper color. If the seed was good it would have germinated in 2 days and would have had a very good germination rate. In the area that I used new pretty seed I have quick germination and a 90% germination rate. I have enough seed now that I don't have to worry about conserving seed any longer. If this next planting is successful I will have thousands of seeds.
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Post by heavyhitterokra on Dec 15, 2017 21:10:49 GMT -6
Glen,
That's a great start. Next year, you'll have plenty of beans to cook and eat.
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Post by glen on Dec 16, 2017 16:48:34 GMT -6
Ron, we know that it can take as long as 4 or 5 months for mail to reach you. And, eventually some may never reach you. I have a friend who is going to return to the US in April. If I can convince him to do this for me I will give him a nice big quantity of this seed and have it shipped to you and George so you guys can try and grow some seed stock. He will drop it in the mail box in the US and it should reach you in less than a week. I doubt I will find anyone to adopt this seed here in Panama so I don't need 1000 seeds. I don't know any gardeners here. Even when I go for my walks I rarely see anyone gardening and even when I do those folks have their own seeds. I also have a different friend who has a Mail Box R US subscription. I am going to try and see if I can send some seed thru them as well. I am sorry to say that the mail system here in Panama leaves much to be desired. Its real backwards here and the people here don't trust outsiders so when I give them seed it goes from my hand straight to the garbage can. Certainly not to the garden.
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Post by heavyhitterokra on Dec 16, 2017 22:13:06 GMT -6
Looking forward to it Glen.
I'm planning on cutting back to 9 rows, each about 120' to 170' feet long next season, so I can till between the rows with a tractor. The breathing problems I've been having, have made it impossible for me to run a roto-tiller long enough to work 14 rows by hand.
Sounds like I'll need to dedicate one of those 30" inch wide rows to growing beans.
Hopefully, the new plan will help me keep a less weedy garden in 2018.
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Post by macmex on Dec 17, 2017 6:34:32 GMT -6
I've only succeeded in getting seed from this bean at this latitude, twice. Once (the first time) I accidentally planted it as a late crop, in NJ. The seed was old and unmarked. I thought it was Tennessee Cutshort, as it has basically the same shape and, when oxidized, same color. It grew and grew without flowering, but then, it flowered and made a wonderful crop. Of course that year we had an extremely late frost. Also, I was growing it on a borrowed plot, at a friend's house. There were trees around the garden, and I suspect that the shade helped to trigger its blooming.
The next time I got seed, I was in Oklahoma. I grew a couple plants in a bucket. Then, when frost threatened, I brought the bucket into my covered porch. I got a fair amount of seed that way.
I sent seed from the NJ crop to Merry Youle who planted and grew it quite successfully in Hawaii. It likes that latitude.
I will grow some more in buckets in 2018. I may plant a bit outdoors, hoping that it makes. I'll chose a place with afternoon shade. Most importantly, I'll be looking for growers in the deep South, will probably correspond with Seed Savers Exchange members about that.
This bean has wonderful quality and high production, under the right conditions. It's a greasy bean, meaning that the pods lack the microscopic hairs that most beans have. According to most experts the greasy bean was developed by the Cherokee. Yet, this one cropped up in deep southern Mexico. So, either it arose independently, or else, the genes traveled down there via some form of communication between Cherokee people and the native people of that area (Zapotec, if I recall correctly).
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Post by glen on Dec 17, 2017 16:47:48 GMT -6
Ron, just so you know, if you wish to experiment with this Mexi pole bean you will need to set up poles for them to climb on. This variety will climb 10 feet or more and does not try and grow laterally. If it cant find anything to wrap around it will just fold over.
George, I am certainly no expert on this bean. Whether or not its a shade loving bean I couldn't say. I haven't tried growing it enough times or at different times of year to tell you. I think you should consult with Merry and ask her questions about what time of year she planted this bean. Whether it was the rainy season or the dry season. How long it took for the vines to put on pods. And, any other questions you can think of. I have questions such as when is it the best time to pick the beans for the pot? Before they turn purple? Once they turn purple the beans are mature. I am guessing that once you throw them in the pot they lose the purple color. The bean seed itself is kind of small as far as I am concerned. I am interested in picking some right at the best time for making string beans.
My next question is where is the Oaxahan province and what is their weather like and how long is their day length on average? Is it a dry climate? Most pole beans don't like a tropical rainy season. Oaxhacan creme pole bean really doesn't like it. You have to get those pods off the vine right when they begin to turn brownish in color or they will get fungal growth and also in the dampness they will germinate in the pod on the vines. This tells me that they didn't come from a place that is wet and humid. They aren't set up for it. I have a 6 month dry season here and we just entered it. And, I just planted a big trial of this bean. About 60 seeds were used and they have already germinated.
If these plants like shade then they are out of luck. I live in an environment that has some of the strongest and bright sun that I have ever experienced. Yes, they will get some shade. I have them against my shade house to offer them some during part of the day. Whether or not they actually need shade is still to be determined. We will learn much more about this vine in the coming months.
Oh, as far as where it came from. I believe that the indian tribes would have traded it. It would have traveled around like that. Kind of like money.
I did not know that bald beans were invented in the US. But, beans would have migrated around if they were special, just like money in my view.
I guess I need to do some research about the Oaxahan province. However, I am sure they have a longer day length that what I have? Might they be in the mountains?
This variety must be pretty versatile since it does pretty well here in Panama in the highest heat and humidity and short day length that I can think of.
I will probably try and send some of this seed to Africa to see if it will grow there also.
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Post by glen on Dec 17, 2017 16:56:01 GMT -6
Ron, If those seeds reach you I suggest you just grow a short row. Sow a seed every 4 inches which is 3 per foot. I am sending you 30 seeds. This is a small trial however, if you can produce seed you will be the man about town. You should end up with at least a couple of lbs of seed that you can share with others. If it does well you might be able to find folks at the seed savers meeting that are willing to trial it.
The vines grow at least 10 feet tall. They don't grow laterally so they need at least a 6 foot trellis with the last 4 feet folding over. I know, setting up a trellis is a pain but its worth it.
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Post by glen on Dec 17, 2017 17:12:16 GMT -6
Looking at a map of Oaxaha I can see that I do not live far from them. However, their weather is considerably milder than mine. They do have times during the year when they experience 11 hours of daylength but they also have times where the day length is over 13. My daylength is mostly 12 hours or less per day for the entire year. I am also living right at about sea level. Oaxaca has all kinds of different elevations some being as high as 5000 feet above sea level and some as low as 1000 feet above sea level. They also have different rainy seasons and the temperatures are much milder than what I have here in Las Tablas. Mind you, it is hard to find someplace on the planet that has weather as harsh as what I have to endure here in Las Tablas. It never gets cold in the Oaxacan province as far as I can tell by the web page. The weather being mild like what I used to have when I lived in Florida. Maybe I should move there?
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Post by glen on Dec 17, 2017 17:20:53 GMT -6
Looking at this information makes me feel better about experimenting with this bean variety. I feel that this bean is probably very flexible in where it can grow since it was probably traded between groups of people for a long time. The variety has probably been around for hundreds of years. Only dying out recently with the advent of cheap store bought beans being available that make growing your own not worth it to the average person. My take is that folks don't want to be farmers. They look down on farmers. They wan't to be consumers only. The name for a country person here in Panama is campesino. Its not a nice compliment to call someone a campesino because it can also imply that the person is ignorant or uneducated. At least that is my take from living in Panama for almost 9 years. I am only guessing but most likely there are many different veggy variety's that are dying out or going extinct here in the Latino world as people quit gardening. I actually thought that when I moved here I would meet people that were really experienced with gardening. I have experienced the exact opposite. Ignorance of self-sufficiency is the rule here, not the exception. The old skills that made up a large part of this culture are largely gone. Including the knowledge of plants, their production, etc. A real shame. My province used to be famous for its Casa De Quincha houses, or straw houses. You can still see them. However, they are becoming more and more rare. The skills that are required to build a Casa De Quincha are pretty much extinct now. It has died with the elders. A very big part of this culture here is their old ways of being self-sufficient and that is largely gone today.
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Post by glen on Dec 17, 2017 19:05:14 GMT -6
I haven't eaten real greasy bean's in probably 30 years. I decided to do some checking on the subject and found this article online. I lived in North Carolina for over 7 years and I don't remember knowingly eating greasy beans even once. I just didn't know what to look for. This article came from an online newsletter in Asheville North Carolina. I have been to Asheville many times. Apparently greasy beans come from this part of the country from the Cherokee Indians. How greasy beans got to Mexico is anyones guess. My guess it migrated to Mexico with trade. Here's a cool article. Good and greasy
Posted on July 22, 2009 by Hanna Rachel Raskin
While area chefs have dutifully stocked their pantries with Hickory Nut Gap meats, Sunburst Farms trout and Spinning Spider cheeses, Appalachian food advocates say perhaps the most local of local foods is still missing from area menus.
Photo by Jonathan Welch
"People who like to eat out should see more beans with local history," asserts Peter Marks of the Appalachian Sustainable Agriculture Project, which has boldly declared July "Greasy Bean Month" in an effort to combat local chefs' penchant for cooking with standard Florida snap beans.
Sone bean experts just shake their heads at the puny, stringless bush beans that now show up in soups, salads and — at high-cotton eateries — in green-bean almandines. Greasys are brawny, tender and drenched with flavor that aficionados say will never be matched by beans engineered for mechanized processing.
"Greasy beans are considered the Cadillac, the Mercedes, the Maserati, while Blue Lakes are considered the Yugo," says Bill Best, director of the Sustainable Mountain Agriculture Center. "The best thing to say is the development of the modern bean is, it's a crime against humanity."
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The rise of the Blue Lake bean is also an affront to Appalachian culinary heritage, because greasys have been a mainstay of mountain gardens since the first European settlers pushed their wagons over the Blue Ridge (and — if recent archaeological research holds — probably long before that).
Greasy beans — which owe their name to their distinctively shiny, fuzz-free pod — were so cherished by early mountaineers that a bride's trousseau often included a few seeds from her family's unique strain. Such devoted guardianship produced an unmatched diversity of greasy beans in the North Carolina and Kentucky highlands, with more than 30 known varieties still cultivated on small patches of mountain land.
But heirloom-bean collectors acknowledge that the hub of greasy-bean diversity is just north of the Buncombe County line, with the Farmer's Market on Brevard Road boasting perhaps the finest assemblage of greasys found anywhere. Asheville is where folks like Best come to shop.
From his trips to the Farmer's Market and countless meetings with farmers, Best has produced a primitive taxonomy of greasys. Every greasy bean is slightly different: The Johnson County bean is so slender it could nearly thread a needle, the Lazy Wife bean is long enough to cross a dinner plate and the Ora Speckled has a stout, flavor-packed pod.
Peter Waskiewicz, owner of Sow True Seed, an heirloom-seed company in Asheville, is working to compile more information about local greasy varieties. "I'm trying to grow out as many strains as I can," he reports. "I'd really like to see the market develop outside of our area, and cataloging these different strains is really going to help."
Waskiewicz's goal is to isolate, identify and name certain greasys to reflect their local origins. He believes a national craze for beans bearing the name "Bethel" or "Sandy Mush" could stimulate the area's agricultural economy.
But before he can start packeting and promoting beans, he needs to research them, a task complicated by the folk traditions surrounding beans. The very habits that have made greasys so central to southern Appalachian culture could potentially threaten their status as the next big thing in heirloom vegetables, since most growers don't record where they got their beans or prevent them from mingling with other strains. Even when two gardeners are growing the very same uncontaminated bean, they might call it by a different name.
"I really haven't found my gold mine yet," Waskiewicz admits. "All I get is people saying, 'Oh, I bought it at the Farmer's Market.' There's work to be done."
Iva Lee Yelton of Mitchell County has been growing greasys since she was 8 years old. She's now 77.
"The kids told us last year, 'You're not able to make a garden,'" Yelton recalls. "I said if I'm living and able I'm going to."
Yelton's been struggling with her cabbage this season, but her corn, beets, mustard greens, tomatoes and candy roasters are thriving. A large section of her backyard garden is reserved for beans.
"My mother had a brown bean, but I never did like a color bean," Yelton says. "I never fool with them. I raise greasys and snowballs and shellies. They're not like anything around here. I raise a bunch bean too. I did raise pinktips, planted part of a row."
As Yelton's discourse illustrates, the North Carolina mountains are hospitable to a dizzying array of bean types. Beans aren't just greasy or not greasy, strung or not strung: They're also classified by their color, their length, how they grow, where they grow and when they're picked. So a greasy bean might accurately be called a cornfield cut-short (although a cornfield cut-short isn't necessarily a greasy).
Like most greasy-bean growers, Yelton doesn't sell her crop.
"I just give them to people who need them," she says. "Two of my daughters don't make no garden. Used to — every house about made gardens."
Adi Harrell, 92, once took a bushel of his greasys to the Western North Carolina Farmer's Market.
"Only beans I've ever sold," says Harrell, whose family settled in Mitchell County just before the Civil War. "I heard they were going for $35 a bushel, so I called this friend and told him. He picked a bushel and I picked a bushel and we drove to Asheville and sold them. At our age, it's more pleasure to see some neighbor's face light up with pleasure at fresh vegetables than get $35 at the market.
"We don't grow them to sell," he continues. "We grow them to divide with the grandchildren."
"Anybody who comes by and look like they're hungry," adds his wife Geneva, whose harvest-time canning sessions often run past midnight.
"All these children aren't interested in growing a garden," Harrell laughs. "They're real interested in their Daddy Adi growing a garden."
With greasy beans increasingly becoming an octogenarian avocation, the demand for greasys is beginning to outstrip supply. Since there's no commercial market to lure farmers into the greasy bean trade, bean lovers are reliant on the few producers who regularly sell their crop.
"We have no trouble selling," says Ronnie Sparks, who, with his wife Sarah, annually plants 20 145-foot bean rows just outside Bakersville. "This is the bean everybody wants. They come from Kentucky and Virginia for them. Older people want a bean, not just a hull."
Greasys began to fade from the Southern-food scene with the introduction of beans that didn't require "unzipping," in mountain parlance. Even cooks who don't mind having to shuck their beans the old-fashioned way tend to romanticize half-runners, a hardy bean that began dominating the Southern market in the mid-20th century.
"They say these half-runners are the things to have," Jonesborough, Tenn., greasy-bean grower Ron Caylor says with a hint of a scoff. "'Round here, they're common as can be. But for those of us who care about our food, having fresh greasy beans for dinner is very meaningful."
Caylor sells his beans on Craigslist. Best lists his greasy seeds in his online catalog, selling mostly to displaced Appalachians.
"Probably 90 percent have a connection to Southern Appalachia," Best says. "If you ask a few questions, you'll find these are people from the region."
Best thinks it's unlikely greasy beans will surface on restaurant menus anytime soon. While the traditional greasy-bean preparation calls for nothing more than a stewpot, beans and a hunk of lard, he suspects that most chefs would shirk at stringing the sometimes delicate beans.
"They're expensive, and they have to be strung, and restaurants aren't going to do that," Best says.
Many chefs acknowledge the bush beans they foist upon their customers aren't much better than flavorless green swizzle sticks, but Best says they tell him there's not yet a realistic alternative.
"They tell me they'll only use beans as a garnish," Best says.
Still, ASAP hopes Asheville area restaurants proclaiming their locavore sensibilities will take time to revisit greasys.
"I think chefs are too busy to worry about side dishes," Caylor frets. "These are just humble little hillbilly beans. But if chefs knew how to do something with them, they're feisty."
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